Transcript of Netoric Tuesday Cafe Discussion re Academic.Writing, January 25, 2000

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Netoric's Spotlight Cafe: January 25, 2000

On Tuesday evening, January 25th, 2000, several members of the editorial board from Academic.Writing attended the Netoric Project's Tuesday Spotlight Cafe. The discussion focused on the formation and possible evolution of Academic.Writing. The announcement and a transcript of the MOO session (presented here with permission from those attending the MOO) follow.

The Announcement

Join Netoric's Tuesday Cafe Discussion
January 25, 2000
8:00 p.m. EST
in Netoric's Tuesday Cafe, on Connections

Topic:

SPOTLIGHT CAFE: Mike Palmquist, Nick Carbone, & Donna Reiss from the editorial board of the new electronic journal, Academic.Writing

Mike Palmquist will lead this discussion about the new e-journal, _Academic.Writing: Interdisciplinary Perspectives on Communication Across the Curriculum_ (http://wac.colostate.edu/aw/). The editors will discuss the work that goes into developing a self-sustaining journal/research database, drawing in contributors and editors, and developing a system that provides academic rewards for service to the teaching community. Their goal was to create a journal that looks a bit like a cross between _Kairos_ and _RhetNet_, yet there are strong forces pulling the journal in the direction of its standard bound counterparts.

From the e-journal's mission statement: **The mission of Academic.Writing is to provide information for - and an opportunity for interaction among - scholars interested in writing, speaking, and otherwise communicating across the curriculum (CAC). A primary goal of the journal is to support individuals ranging from CAC researchers to CAC program designers to teachers interested in using communication assignments and activities in their courses. Unlike a conventional online journal, which mirrors the volume/issue format of print journals, the journal is designed to function as an evolving, growing document (or, more accurately, a collection of documents) on the Web.**

Please join us this week as we discuss the history and mission of the e-journal, along with the challenges of creating and sustaining a different type of publication.

(Note: next week we will continue the discussion along similar lines, focusing on writing for and submitting to online journals. We will be joined by editors and review board members from _Kairos_.)

The Transcript

cin shows slide 1 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Welcome to the Tuesday Cafe! This discussion is being logged. Logs of Netoric events are made available for a few weeks on the Netoric website at http://bsuvc.bsu.ed u/~gsiering/netoric/ before being archived. We make logs available to allow those interested in topics but unable to attend discussions to read them. Anyone wishing to make any other use of these logs, e.g., for research, citation in a paper or article, etc., must obtain the permission of the participants. Our motto: If you can't find 'em, don't cite 'em. At this time, we invite you to introduce yourself by your real life name, your email address, and any other information you wish to give (institutional or company affiliation, location, etc.). You are of course welcome to remain anonymous. We now pause for introductions. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * SCog is Sharon Cogdill, St. Cloud State University An ivory guest comes in from the hallway. barrym is Barry Maid, Arizona State East mday is Michael Day, Northern Illinois University James is James Inman, Furman University Tari Fanderclai, Akamai Technologies Kiwi is Janice Walker, Georgia SOuthern University dano is danika brown, university of arizona cin is cindy wambeam, new mexico state university The ivory guest is Douglas Eyman, Cape Fear CC The guest is Karen Lunsford, U of Illinois, Writing Studies MikeP says, "MikeP is Mike Palmquist from Colorado State, mp@lamar.colostate.edu, http://lamar.colostate.edu/~mp" cin waves to Doug! Tari says, "yay, high douglas!" SCog [to the ivory guest]: hey doug! Tari says, "er" Tari says, "hi" Bradley Dilger, University of Florida mday just saw a message from Doug on ACW The ivory guest seems to have lost his character somewhere.... cin waves to karen too -- good to see some new faces tonight. barrym [to the ivory guest]: good to see you Tari says, "didn't mean to pass judgment right off the bat" The ivory guest waves to everyone. Tari eyes herself warily. James grins at the ivory guest DonnaR (guest) says, "Donna R is Donna Reiss, currently Tidewater Community College but considering a move" jrice jrice Jeff Rice University of Florida cin shows slide 2 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Reminder: Be sure to submit your CW2K Online proposals soon! The final deadline is January 31, 2000. Check out this url for the cfp: http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/cw2konline/present/cfp.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * barrym [to DonnaR (guest)]: you too? we're all moving The ivory guest [to Tari]: I am on a very tall chair. Bradley wooos for cw2konline! Tari grins. mday R all MOOving Kiwi grins at mday. ivory guest changes eir name to douglas (guest). cin shows slide 3 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * TONIGHT'S SPOTLIGHT CAFE features Mike Palmquist, Nick Carbone, & Donna Reiss from the editorial board of the new electronic journal, _Academic.Writing: Interdisciplinary Perspectives on Communication Across the Curriculum_. http://wac.colostate.edu/aw/ ======================================================= from THE MISSION STATEMENT: **The mission of Academic.Writing is to provide information for - and an opportunity for interaction among - scholars interested in writing, speaking, and otherwise communicating across the curriculum (CAC). A primary goal of the journal is to support individuals ranging from CAC researchers to CAC program designers to teachers interested in using communication assignments and activities in their courses. Unlike a conventional online journal, which mirrors the volume/issue format of print journals, the journal is designed to function as an evolving, growing document (or, more accurately, a collection of documents) on the Web.** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * James grins at mday barrym grins at mday. Tari says, "yeah, we need a proposal from everyone in this room." shortstuff comes in from the hallway. mday says, "do I need to propose the Town Hall 3, Tari?" Tari [to mday]: no, that's a special event we're asking for. cin shows slide 4 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * We'll begin by looking at the how the journal was started and the reasons that it took the shape it did. Below are a few questions to serve as prompts; please feel free to build upon these and ask other questions! ======================================================= What was the catalyst behind this project? How did you get editors and staffing for the project? Why the choice in having (free) subscriptions? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ronan comes in from the hallway. ronan waves hello to y'all James waves to ronan MikeP says, "I can talk about the catalyst, I think." barrym . o O ( I guess we can *really* start now ) SCog sits down quietly to listen SCog sits at the polished wooden table. Bradley waves to Ronan. barrym . o O ( Scog quiet? ) cin hopes that Mike, Donna, and Nick will chime in and talk lots -- and give us all some good background info. SCog will try MikeP says, "It started out as an informational Web site -- the WAC Clearinghouse, which grew out of our online writing center/wac project at CSU." ronan says, "is there a URL for the journal?" SCog nods to MikeP. nickc says, "MikeP got editors and staffingby writing lots of emails and asking people--being a catalysty kind of guy" MikeP says, "http://aw.colostate.edu" ronan says, "thnaks" MikeP says, "After a while, in fact, it felt like a cattle call." Cath comes in from the hallway. cin says, "to those who just came in, you can peek at slides 3 & 4): peek 4 on tcpro" barrym waves to Cath. cin [to MikeP]: meaning you got lots of volunteers? MikeP says, "The reason we shifted to a journal was that people couldn't figure out how to make contributions to the WAC Clearinghouse fit into their performance and merit reviews." Cath says, "Hi" mday hugs cath. Long time no see nickc nods cin--lots of good folk on editorial board & such ronan waves to cath dano nods at mikep... that makes good sense barrym . o O ( have I heard that one before ) cin nods, getting credit for work on websites is difficult Cath says, "just passing thru - waiting for class to start - will probably have to give up computer bbefore long" shortstuff walks into classroom for the first time DonnaR (guest) says, "MikeP and Academic.Writing have incorporated the ECAC (electronic communication across the curriculum) website into the journal resources--giving the site a new home and a way for people and programs to add themselves" MikeP says, "I was at CCCCs and started talking with Christine Hult and later with Bill Condon and decided that it might work if we called the WAC Clearinghouse an academic journal. Then people could fit it into their academic rewards structures." shortstuff shly looks around barrym nods at MikeP. mday says, "Hey shortstuff!" nickc says, "but at the same time, the goalis not to turn the clearing house into an overbearing peer reviewed jouranl--some of it will be peer reviewed and move at a slower cycle, but some of it will be instatn and always evolving--a fully faceted scholarly site that tries to draw on many of the potential of the medium" Bradley [to MikeP]: So you sorta wrapped the journal around the existing clearinghouse. MikeP says, "We had a bunch of meetings, brought in more people and pretty soon we were on our way toward something that might work. It took a while to come up with a new name, though." shortstuff says, "hello everyone!" ronan says, "what was the process for rounding up an ed board? how does one do that?" shortstuff says, "Hi Scog!!!" ronan waves to shortstuff Tari [to nickc]: that's the part i really like. Janice comes in from the hallway. Tari says, "the fast turnaround idea." SCog nods. barrym says, "sounds almost hmmmm...Crumpish" Tari says, "i'm sort of bored by the 'print journal stored online' approach" ronan [to nickc]: how will you let folks know about new stuff? mday says, "is shortstuff CJ?" Bradley [to Tari]: Definitely. SCog shakes her head at mday Kiwi waves to Janice. mday oopses MikeP says, "It was easier than I thought to get an editorial board together. Several of us (the founding editors, see the web site) put together a list of candidates and I called or emailed them. Then I sent out formal letters that they could use in their performance review files." Janice waves to Kiwi James grins at mday shortstuff [to SCog]: " SCog says, "Shortstuff is a former student of mine, now in grad school at" nickc [to ronan]: pilfer other ed boards, look at whose publishing in wac and doing interesting work, talk to people you know, that kind of thing ronan whirls waves at all SCog says, "ohio state" SCog . o O ( yes? ) shortstuff [to SCog]: "I can't tremember how to whisper. ronan [to nickc]: did you have a clear mission statement/ed policy before you did that or after? MikeP says, "We'll let people know by hitting the lists at first, then we'll get a database for subscriptions set up. (I'm meeting with someone tomorrow to get that project started.)" mday says, "oh nuts. Dinner is ready and I will be in the doghouse if I do not go eat now. I'll watch the log. Bye for now!" barrym waves to mday. DonnaR (guest) says, "bye mday see you at athe 4cs rock n roll" [ 8:14 pm ] Kiwi waves to mday. James waves to mday MikeP waves at mday nickc [to ronan]: we had an idea and some thoughts, nothing formal, got some people like Donna in early, and Dickie Selfe, and used that group to work out the details on mission and so on MikeP says, "The mission evolved. We tried to keep it close to the original goals of the WAC Clearinghouse. " SCog nods to nickc. cin says, "are most of the editors from English? (just wondering if there are many non-English folks in CAC to draw from)" DonnaR (guest) says, "By the way, Dickie wanted to come tonight, but he's taking a class same time" MikeP says, "We're still primarily interested, I think, in creating a place to discuss WAC -- outside of the lists -- online." nickc says, "subscriptions are free, but we'd like people to register---ala NYtimes type approach--so we know who's reading us, and have numbers for grant writing and other internal purposes (no selling of lists, of cousre)" MikeP says, "We have some folks from outside of English -- engineering, Tech comm, but most are from inside English" ronan nods at nick SCog says, "you can also use software like WebTrends or something to track ppl who visit your site" Bradley [to MikeP]: Did problems with lists contribute to the need to start the journal? barrym [to MikeP]: I kinda like you don't consider tech comm in English ;-) SCog says, "that's helped us" DonnaR (guest) says, "And we would like to encourage people from other disciplines--promote the journal at the biennial WAC conference for example" cin grins at barrym, I was wondering about that too. But then, a lot of places are Communication, not English... nickc doesn't know of many WAC initiatives or go-getters who originate out of Eng/Comp--lots of non Eng/comp teachers sign on, by course, but not many explore it asfield as far as I can tell ronan [to SCog]: the folks who put out Pueblo, Chaco, got bought y MacroMedia for their webWatch software MikeP [to Bradley]: No. That wasn't really the problem. I just wanted to put up some materials that would be more static than an email discussion list. And perhaps more formal, a la Kate Kiefer's Intro to WAC. barrym won't start in this time SCog says, "i've been thinking people who study mass communications and speech communication would find moo very interesting" SCog says, "esp the latter" dano apologizes but must bow out... wishes luck on Academic.Writing.... will subscribe as soon as the form is up. looks like a great project. cin nods to MikeP, Kate's stuff is awesome -- I've passed it on to several people. DonnaR (guest) says, "We have some hypertexts in the first issue, don't we Mike" barrym nods at SCog. MikeP [to barrym]: Sorry, institutional issues. At CSU they have their own department. Bradley nods to Mike. ronan [to SCog]: jana and bradley are developing Library Reference MOO dano steps out to the hallway. Cath has to run for tonight - class about to start - yall have fun Cath has disconnected. barrym [to MikeP]: no problem...I'll have my own dept here too SCog grins at barrym. cin thinks we're sort of moving into the realm of the next slide...so I'm going to put it up... MikeP says, "Yes, Donna. We have some good ones, but not as many as I'd like." cin shows slide 5 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The concept was for a journal that looks a bit like a cross between RhetNet and Kairos. On the website, you'll see a collection of resources (ranging from links to CAC sites, to conference listings, to online articles and theses). You'll also see a more journal-like format, with calls for submissions. THOUGHTS from MIKE PALMQUIST: **I'm imagining a growing, evolving community of scholars interested in communication-across-the-curriculum issues. I'm not sure we'll get there, though. There are some strong forces that make this seem more like a normal journal.** ======================================================= What are these forces? How do you get around them? Are there good things you can take from them? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * barrym can't believe the local weather in Phoenix is showing pics of Carolina MikeP says, "Of course. I'd like to get more submissions in gerneral." nickc needs to head off and take daughter to girl scouts--her troop has to make all those damn cookies she sold nickc waves bye barrym waves to nickc. nickc has disconnected. MikeP waves at Nick James grins at barrym cin [to barrym]: get used to it -- here in the desert, we so rarely get weather that they're always showing weather in other places. :] DonnaR (guest) says, "bye Nick" barrym nods at cin. The guest [to MikeP]: When you say "academic" writing, do you have anything particular in mind? MikeP says, "Some of the forces are simply expectations that a journal has to have issues and volumes." A taupe guest comes in from the hallway. ronan says, "everyone keeps talking bout the weather, but dammit, no one does anything about it" James waves to taupe guest ronan says, "hello taupe guest" A canary guest comes in from the hallway. cin wants to hear more about the balance between creating a new online journal without having it become an online archive for traditional texts... James hands ronan a copy of The Avengers movie ronan wants to know what cin wnats to knwo too MikeP says, "We wanted to come up with a name that would imply a wide range of writing activities, but still activities built around academic work. I'm still not sure we picked the "right" name, but it's what we're going to go with." ronan says, "activities???" SCog nods to MikeP. ronan says, "online forums, collaborative work?" barrym says, "and it's sure to get the attention of p&t committees ;-)" James likes the name quite a bit cin demonstrates her ignorance, p&t? MikeP says, "That's an interesting question, Cindy. We're also supporting the Language and Learning Across the Curriculum back issues. I'm putting them up in PDF format." barrym [to cin]: promotion and tenure SCog . o O ( promotion, tenure ) SCog loses James comforts SCog, had only typed 'pr' SCog grins at James. The guest [to MikeP]: assignments as well as studies as well as articles as well as...? cin grins, ah, that comes from my never having been in a tenure-track position. DonnaR (guest) says, "Maybe activities that aren't what we used to call academic writing like online dialogues edited for the Web the way interviews are editetd for print" MikeP says, "But I think we want to try to make this a journal that doesn't have a print analog. That means we can do some different things." SCog says, "i've been thinking of printlike things on the web are sort of like one-syllable words. you use them with some people sometimes to be sure you're understood" ronan nods at Donna barrym finds the whole project fascinating and exciting James agrees with barrym Cath's friends arrive to cart her off to bed. barrym [to SCog]: what a wonderful analogy Douglas (guest) [to MikeP]: it sounds like you are shooting for something that is both a journal and at the same time more than a journal (but not a list). The focus on WAC/ECAC will contribute to its success I think. DonnaR (guest) says, "Hey Mike can I tell them about the cw99 town hall webtext?" cin wonders if having users subscribing makes it easier to contact people when new articles/resources are made available? MikeP says, "One big thing is a periodic forum built around a single question (opening statement, responses, closing statements, and lots of cross referencing). Our first one involves Donna LeCourt, Anne Herrington, Art Young, Sue McLeod, and David Russell. It's turning out well." barrym says, "new genres need to evolve through new media..this may be the start of a new evolution" ronan says, "any plans for reviews, coupled with a response from s/he who is reviewd? or something like a point/counterpoint that develops over time?" MikeP [to DonnaR (guest)]: Please. nickc's friends arrive to cart em off to bed. Kiwi [to ronan]: Like what JAC Online is doing now? [ 8:25 pm ] ronan nods at kiwi MikeP [to ronan]: yes. we're doing reviews and we're trying to expand the things we review beyond books. We're reviewing books this first time through, but our reviews editor, Will Hochman, is also reviewing MLA. ronan says, "the same, only different, as they say in LA" MikeP says, "MLA, LA, what's the diff?" Kiwi [to MikeP]: Reviewing MLA? SCog sees the help bubbles on the homepage, at last. nice html! DonnaR (guest) says, "OK--one of the pieces in the first issue is by Dene Grigar and John Barber, a three-version webtext of the Town Hall from Rapid City CW99--hypertext and graphics and different ways to read and access it" barrym . o O ( they wouldn't dare let me review MLA ) nickc comes in from the hallway. MikeP [to Kiwi]: Yes. He's done sort of a conference report. I'm curious about how people will respond to it. Kiwi grins at barrym. ronan [to Kiwi]: our reviewer gives MLA 2 thumbs down! James grins at barrym Kiwi wants to review MLA! MikeP says, "And I want to built in response forums for the journal. I've seen limited success with those, though." nickc on way to car, neighbor swung by and volunteered to take my kid, so I'm off the driving hook for a while Kiwi bats her eyes innocently and hides July/August Lingua Franca barrym . o O ( oh the conference not the organization ) SCog . o O ( oh i know! let's invite mla to come defend themselves some tuesday! ) Kiwi [to SCog]: Yes! cin grins at nickc, glad you're back with us barrym [to Kiwi]: you mean the Inquirer of academe? MikeP laughing cin [to SCog]: great idea ronan [to SCog]: on charges of high crimes and misdemeanors? barrym [to SCog]: like they could really MOO Kiwi [to barrym]: Actually, their interview with me went pretty well--s'long as I keep hiding! SCog [to barrym]: i can't help if their literacy levels are so low MikeP says, "Everyone at MLA looked alike. It was odd." nickc [to MikeP]: only response forums I've seen work moderately well are at large sites--salon.com, nytimes.com--types that have large numbers of visitors Janice had same thought as barrym Kiwi [to MikeP]: Looked alike? barrym nods at SCog. MikeP says, "So the key idea is to get lots of visitors. I'm not sure we'll be able to do that right away." barrym [to MikeP]: they all wear tweed ronan [to nickc]: The Comic Journal has a message board that is 100% call and response SCog [to MikeP]: maybe the topics you choose will help, too? MikeP [to Kiwi]: They all dressed in black and had these little glasses. ;-) DonnaR (guest) says, "I went to MLA once but nobody looked like me so I don't get it...." Bradley [to nickc]: Seen slashdot? Wonder if it can be considered to work. barrym [to DonnaR (guest)]: that's to your credit SCog . o O ( Terminally Hip Wanna-Bes ) ronan nods at murdock Kiwi grins at MikeP. SCog [to Bradley]: oh, that's an interesting idea ronan says, "I think /. is a great threaded forum" cin has reconnected. James likes some parts of MLA, for the record, but won't go there tonight (: cin got disconnected for a few minutes, sorry if I missed some stuff MikeP says, "I think one of the things that might help us get Academic.Writing workig well is if we can build up a strong enough base of resources for people interested in WAC/CAC/ECAC. I'm hoping the articles, links, reviews, and research materials might help us do that." nickc [to Bradley]: slashdot works because it mines other sites for discussion topics and articles and again attracts lots of users who can sustain threads over time. It's all in the numbers---I'm not sure what the numbers are for a wac journal, for Kairos, for Ncte.org SCog nods to MikeP. The guest says, "A thought--I see a lot of people, when asked, showcasing their classes (students' websites, for example). Would there be space to connect these sites to Academic.Writing?" Bradley says, "Well, I was wondering if it *works* in terms of the discussions." cin nods to guest, that's a neat idea -- showcasing CAC/WAC projects around the country. DonnaR (guest) says, "Yes, Barry. I dont' know how to page and whisper (and don't anybody tell me please)--but yes, I'm looking" MikeP says, "Yes. That's something we'd like to do. Volunteering?" Douglas (guest) [to MikeP]: If you come up with a successful way of running forums, let us know. We've tried it, and even though we can see from our logs that we have several thousand visitors per month (not hits, visitors), we never were able to get forums off the ground. guest changes eir name to Karen (guest). nickc [to Karen (guest)]: yes, via either classroom practices section or as a more evolved feature of some type Kafkaz comes in from the hallway. MikeP [to douglas (guest)]: I will. barrym waves to Kafkaz. Kafkaz waves to barrym and all Douglas (guest) [to MikeP]: of course, your specific focus, and the building of an online WAC/ECAC community, will probably help a lot. Karen (guest) [to MikeP]: At the moment, I don't have a class doing websites, but friends do. Would be willing to ask. MikeP says, "Nick is our Teaching Exchange Editor and Donna is our CAC Connections Editor. I think they'd fight over making those kinds of connections." Bradley says, "I think smaller numbers could make it better in a lot of ways. I don't mean to be exclusionary, but the trolling stuff gets old." DonnaR (guest) says, "I like the idea of linking to WAC-CAC-ECAC classes and maybe encouraging articles from other disciplines by getting the teachers and students connected to the journal" MikeP [to Karen (guest)]: Thanks. ronan becomes a giant cockroach before Kafkaz nickc says, "thinks short sustained special topics discussions that are focused, held on email, which is the easiest thing for most people to use, and archived as the event unfolds (w/ hypernews or something similar) might work as a way to build interactivity" Kafkaz hugs ronan the insect cin [to MikeP]: are you (or any of the other editors) getting any time release for this? do you get much in the way of "reward" for your work? Kafkaz is brave that way The canary guest has disconnected. The disconnected canary guest decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home. MikeP says, "I'm not getting any release time. But I don't really do any work, so it's not a problem." A sage guest comes in from the hallway. SCog grins at MikeP. Bradley laughs. barrym [to MikeP]: sounds like you're a dean in training ronan has turned off his irony detector cin says, "who's doing all the work? I mean, you've got web development and submissions to review and writers/resources to solicit, correct?" Bradley [to nickc]: Hypernews is cool because it does both email and board stuff. DonnaR (guest) says, "And I turned my work over to the journal (keeping up the ECAC website)--but if MikeP isn't going to maintain it, who is? Uh oh...." SCog pokes barrym. MikeP says, "No Deanship here. I was asked to apply and said "Mmmm. Maybe never."" barrym grins at SCog. nickc [to barrym]: he just stepped down from his turn as comp. director--so compared to that . . . ronan says, "UBB: Ultimate Bulletin Board" cin grins, okay, so I suckered and didn't pick up on the irony SCog shakes cin's irony detector. "It's probably the batteries." SCog . o O ( or it's y2k! ) cin thinks we can move on to the next slide...a discussion of submissions and the future of the journal barrym [to SCog]: or it's trying to run on windows cin shows slide 6 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Let's shift now into a discussion of what the future holds for this new e-journal. ======================================================= IMMEDIATE FUTURE: when will the first articles begin to appear? Do you already have submissions? How are you drawing in contributions, and what is the editorial process once a submission is received? IN THE LONG RUN: How can this project become self-sustaining, moving beyond the energy and impetus of a few people? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * MikeP [to cin]: We've set things up pretty well. I'm doing all the coding (most, actually, since Nick and a few others are working on their sites, and many of the contributors are sending us their work already coded), but I'm doing the major site work. We have a managing editor who handles reviews, and then we have section editors who do all the work for their sections. It's sort of decentralized. nickc [to cin]: irony is overrated, better to go with a simmering sense of sarcasm sage guest changes eir name to will (guest). cin shakes her head and a dead battery flies out [ 8:35 pm ] cin grins at nickc, I'll remember that...sarcasm... ronan says, "irony is soooo pre-Millenarian" cin waves to will Kafkaz . o O ( the simmering sarcasm needs hot sauce, but what doesn't? ) MikeP says, "I was hoping to get the first issue out in November, then in January, and now I'm thinking late February. But after this there won't be any "issues." Well publish as we get things and let the community know things are up periodically." Saffista comes in from the hallway. cin notes that the energy and impetus thing is a big question for Kairos also -- it's been tough watching it waver, then regain it's momentum. ronan . o O ( periodic emails and list announcements? ) jrice [to MikeP]: will not having issues make it hard to find archived pieces or to get credit from academia? Douglas (guest) [to cin]: and its about to pick up speed. SCog says, "i wonder if things really should become self-sustaining, or if it's not the process of doing them that's at least as valuable as the things themselves..." Kafkaz waves to Saffista ronan waves to saffista Saffista waves to kafkaz cin nods to douglas, I'm glad it will be. James grins at Douglas-----and bigtime Saffista waves to ronan nickc says, "one of the things we will need to work out in advance is to plan for continued growth--making sure articles can be searched and databased as well as found by issue numbers and links, and also finding ways to keep track of things so that we can refer back to stuff as issues arise again and old stuff becomes newly appropriate" MikeP says, "I think that we can avoid that, but only if noone keeps close tabs on us. If we can keep up a regular stream of new material and integrate it into the site, I think we'll be able to keep up our momentum. " MikeP says, "But I think I'll have to do a lot of solicitation of materials." DonnaR (guest) says, "Every time an article is added, it's got a date and therefore can be cited, right? Instead of a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly etc it's a wheneverly" Douglas (guest) [to MikeP]: that always helps. ronan says, "jrice asks a good question. how would one cite it on the cv without issue #s" cin wonders if printbound journals and organizations have the same sort of problems barrym has reconnected. Kiwi [to ronan]: Ahem. My area. That would depend on how it's posted. Kafkaz likes "wheneverly" very much barrym is back MikeP [to jrice]: I don't think so. We'll have several different navigation tools to help people find things. And I'll probably break things into volumes (yearly breaks, but i'm not sure where). DonnaR (guest) says, "Thanks kafkaz" Douglas (guest) [to ronan]: perhaps they can have arbitrary issue numbers - issue 1 covers jan through march or whatever. barrym grins at douglas (guest). nickc [to cin]: my sense of Kairos, and others may have a different take, is that momentum becomes hard to sustain because it's a project mainly begun and lead by graduate students on the cusp of completing degrees and finding tenure track jobs. So people have to move out. Also, since it's not affiliated w/ a particular program, recruiting becomes harder to do SCog says, "i think libaries choose which print journals to buy according to the number of issues they bring out and how regularly they do that, and also where they're indexed" ronan [to Kiwi]: dependent on whn it was added to the site? barrym nods at nickc. Kiwi would be glad to work with Academic.Writing to develop a citation format (and since I'm working on the proposal for a 2/e of CGOS, I can include it in there, too). nickc nods DonnaR and wheneverly MikeP says, "Some journals don't use the issue number in their cites, so I think the year and volumen will work for us." Kiwi nods at MikeP. Bradley says, "navigation should be easy, if you use a directory structure like cnn" cin nods to nickc, I was about to say that (about the grad students). It's tough as grads move in and out of their roles, and in and out of academia in general. Bradley says, "eg http://wac.colostate.edu/aw/contents/2000/03/fanderclai_pr es/" DonnaR (guest) says, "I kinda like not having issues and volumes-coming up with a new citation system for this approach to publication--if the pieces are peer reviewed and respected, eventually everybody will want to use our new system" nickc nod bradley on cnn model and others like it Bradley says, "eg http://wac.colostate.edu/aw/contents/2000/08/dilger_foo/" Bradley says, "etc" Kiwi nods at DonnaR (guest). MikeP [to Kiwi]: Thanks. Can you send me email later? Kiwi [to DonnaR (guest)]: Kinda like pagination--an artifact of print culture Karen (guest) says, "If there are regular additions to certain parts of the site, could those parts be called columns? " Kiwi [to MikeP]: yup--what's your email address again? barrym says, "it's especially true if some folks who already have reputations submit pieces..that helped Kairos in the beginning" MikeP [to Kiwi]: And we're using your extensions to APA now, btw. Kiwi [to MikeP]: yup--i noticed :) James nods to barrym Kiwi blushes. MikeP [to Karen (guest)]: Yes. In fact, w ronan [to barrym]: does a bad reputation count? nickc [to Karen (guest)]: that's one possible model. I don't think we need to worry too much about what we call things--what will matter is the interface, how well things can be found as volume grows, and reputation, which comes from having good stuff that others want to site barrym [to ronan]: you have to get behind me on that count DonnaR (guest) says, "Bad reputations count double" MikeP says, "Oops. I meant to say to Karen, Yes, in fact we have a column on K-12 issues, contributed by Pam Childers." Karen (guest) [to MikeP]: and nickc Sounds good--I was thinking in terms of c.v. issues. nickc says, "how we're cited--what url someone gives--will depend as much on when they cite us and what our url structure and storage method is--those won't always be fixed" Kiwi nods at nickc. MikeP says, "Good point, Nick. I'm thinking of going to Allaire's Cold Fusion and I'm not sure how that would handle static URLs." jrice [to nickc]: do you see this as a problem: not having storage from the start? won't people want to place where certain academic standards exist? ronan [to MikeP]: in case no one has mentioned it, the website design is top notch nickc [to Karen (guest)]: well, with c.v., folks can embellish as needed and we'll swear to god it was like they said MikeP [to ronan]: Thanks. Kafkaz grins James agrees with ronan----very well done Karen (guest) [to nickc]: I like how you think DonnaR (guest) says, "There's going to be a panel on electronic publications at CW2K, and some of you folks will want to come. MikeP can you remember who's going to be there?" ronan wants to list NickC as his personal reference MikeP says, "John Barber, Doug Eyman, and others ... help." James says, "Douglas and I will be there for Kairos" nickc [to jrice]: we've got plenty of storage space--many gigabytes, but what matters is storage systems, making that space reliable so that when articles are cited they can still be found in ten, twenty, and beyond years MikeP says, "Thanks, James." James says, "Michael Spooner" Will (guest) says, "I'm trying to make it there" cin nods and agrees with ronan, great design -- very pleasing and easy to read. DonnaR (guest) says, "Michael Spooner of Utah State Press, Dickie Selfe, " James says, "someone from CHORUS" cin is a bit behind -- had to put the dog out to bark. James blushes, is bad with names jrice [to nickc]: correct. that's what I meant. I don't mean to sound negative, just wondering... [ 8:45 pm ] MikeP says, "I think it will be an interesting panel." Douglas (guest) says, "John Norman, from _Chorus_, Jan and Cynthia from _Lingua_, Victor Vitanza from Pre/Text." Bradley [to nickc]: That eliminates Cold Fusion, unless you keep a copy as text somewhere. Bradley grins. DonnaR (guest) says, "Some of us want to talk about self publishing and student publishing too--and some Kairos editors also are on the panel" MikeP [to douglas (guest)]: Sudden panic. Did I spell your last name right? Douglas (guest) [to MikeP]: yep. good job. MikeP grins nickc [to jrice]: they're important questions, and stuff we're thinking about. If you've got any insights or thoughts, email Mike or me. addresses are at the site: aw.colostate.edu nickc needs to leave again--this time to pick up wife at CSU, ironically enough in building just across from Mike's office cin waves bye to nickc nickc waves bye nickc has disconnected. barrym waves to Nick again MikeP [to cin]: So can we publish the transcript of this session on a.w? MikeP waves to Nickc cin thinks we should ask everyone here tonight -- is it okay with all of you? SCog says, "ok by me" jrice says, "ok" barrym says, "no problem here" cin [to Tari]: what's our policy? it's getting permission from everyone who participated in the discussion, correct? SCog wishes she were more intelligent and thoughtful, though, for the ages DonnaR (guest) says, "Only if you take out the part where I said bad reputations count double -- just kidding" Saffista nods James nods to cin SCog grins at DonnaR (guest). ronan says, "only if I can send 10% of all royalties to Feed The Grad Students" cin grins at donnar Kafkaz has done little but watch, so thinks its a-okay MikeP [to ronan]: Consider it done. ronan [to DonnaR (guest)]: that was my favorite part Douglas (guest) should've argued with Nick's comment on K's momentum, but will say ok. Kiwi gives permission (always). Will (guest) says, "i've said nothing, so sure" DonnaR (guest) says, "mine too" James says, "it's fine by me too" SCog [to douglas (guest)]: you could do it now Janice agrees. Tari nods to cin cin [to MikeP]: I can forward the transcripts on to you, or you can grab them from the Netoric archives. Karen (guest) nods yes MikeP [to cin]: Thanks. I should have thought of that before we got going. James says, "or, there's a way you can request one" cin [to douglas (guest)]: yes, argue with his point on K's momentum... Janice needs to get cats out of trouble. Talk to you all later. James says, "but i forget what it is" Tari waves to Janice. MikeP waves to Janice Kiwi grins at James. James [to Tari]: how can copies be requested? shortstuff quietly gets up and leaves the room since she needs to go home now. cin nods to mikep, I should have thought of it also -- I think that most everyone here now said okay. If you need the permission of others, we can get you email I think. Saffista waves to janice Janice steps out to the hallway. MikeP [to cin]: Thanks. cin waves bye to shortstuff Tari says, "'ask recorder for text' if you want text format; 'ask recorder for html' if you want html format" DonnaR (guest) says, "Bye everybody--till next time" James [to Tari]: thanks! shortstuff has disconnected. Tari says, "you'll get the log in the mail when cin turns it off" James waves to DonnaR barrym waves to DonnaR (guest). cin shows the last slide before too many others leave Douglas (guest) says, "Well, it's just that _Kairos_ isn't really composed of graduate students. Traditionally, the staff has been about half grad. students (except the founding crew), so I don't think it's correct to define the journal as a grad student journal." cin shows slide 7 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A NOTE ABOUT NEXT TUESDAY'S CAFE: ======================================================= Next week we will be continuing with a discussion along the same lines as tonight's. We will be addressing how one goes about writing a hypertext article, then submitting it to an online journal. We will be joined by editors and review board members from _Kairos_ (http://english.ttu.edu/kairos), and hopefully some authors of published webtexts. We'd like to extend the invitation to any of the editorial board from _Academic.Writing_. Also, if you know of people who've written for online publications, or who work with any of the online publications that are out there, please encourage them to attend. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * cin says, "but let's keeep talking -- I'm interested in what Doug just said." SCog says, "if you all can get the announcement out early, i'll post it to humanist, etc." James nods to Douglas-----and we're easily at less than 50% grad students now on staff DonnaR (guest) has disconnected. cin nods to douglas, are there any tenure-track faculty members as staff? The disconnected DonnaR (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home. Douglas (guest) says, "also, only about 20% of the work we publish is grad student work." MikeP [to douglas (guest)]: I haven't really thought of Kairos as a "grad student journal," to tell you the truth. Besides, you guys are going to be running the place pretty soon, so I'd better be careful. cin says, "or is it adjuncts? (not to demean adjuncts, I'm just wondering about issues of reward and stability)" Kafkaz looks forward to next week Kafkaz says, "Maybe I'll even be on time!" James grins at cin-----me? barrym says, "I thought the founding crew had a grad student presence, but many of you are now tenure track" cin lols at james, sorry -- I keep forgetting that you're not a grad student any more. nickc's friends arrive to cart em off to bed. cin wacks her forehead and says, d'oh barrym [to cin]: just wait..your time will come too Bradley grins. James moves his contract to where he can see it for reassurance James grins ronan says, "James is slated to be announced as King Of All Things. I just read the press release for it. congrats James" Douglas (guest) says, " cin, well, we have James and Joel as tenure track, Jeff White soon will be, I'm neither here nor there, 2 new staff are grad students and the other is working for DOE." cin sighs, if I ever finissh this damnable dissertation... Karen (guest) must read (gasp) books now and so waves goodbye James waves to Karen Kafkaz waves bye to Karen Kiwi whuggles cin. barrym waves to Karen (guest). MikeP waves to Karen Saffista waves James [to cin]: you will! hang in there Karen (guest) has disconnected. The disconnected Karen (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home. cin thinks that Kairos has been changing quite a bit in the past year. Actually, I wonder if not having as many grads on the staff will be a negative thing in some ways too. Kiwi [to cin]: I finished mine--that means anyone can! MikeP says, "I don't even want to think about dissertations. It still gives me the shakes." mday is back barrym says, "even I finished one" Bradley shakes, and shimmies mday did too. Wow. barrym [to mday]: just in time to close the show Kiwi [to barrym]: On time?? Kiwi eyes barrym warily. James [to barrym]: what was yours about? mday says, "It took freaking forever" MikeP says, "I _really_ like the new design for Kairos. Very cool, and very usable." barrym [to Kiwi]: that's another horror story Ophelia comes in from the hallway. Kiwi giggles at barrym. barrym [to James]: only SCog knows Douglas (guest) says, "cin in some ways it can be. most of the problems with last year were caused by a lack of committment, but not on the part of grad students. That and a kind of lull in submissions and so on." cin grins, glad to hear I'm not the only one who shakes over the process. SCog grins at barrym. ronan says, "i really like the menu for CW2K, which I just read. sounds better than the swill we served in gainesville" James grins at barrym, thinks about a UMI search cin nods to douglas [ 8:55 pm ] shortstuff's friends arrive to cart her off to bed. Tari ate a lot of things in gainesville, but doesn't precisely recall any swill ronan swoons before Ophelia James [to MikeP]: thanks! jason cranford teague just finished the redesign, and douglas did the complicated process of making it work mday says, "these folks have the freaking menu up already? I'm about to be seriously outdone." Douglas (guest) says, "grad students seem to bring more vigor when they sign on, and they usually get out as they start the diss. Problems only arise when they try to do everything." cin [to mday]: Dene is a whirlwind. Ophelia tousles ronan's hair Tari [to mday]: actually, they're unlikely to outdo a trip to the black hills. cin dropped out of sight with the diss -- very all-consuming. jrice waves bye jrice has disconnected. Bradley agrees. cin reshows the CW2Konline slide cin shows slide 2 on the Tuesday Cafe projector. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Reminder: Be sure to submit your CW2K Online proposals soon! The final deadline is January 31, 2000. Check out this url for the cfp: http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/cw2konline/present/cfp.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * SCog says, "yay!" Douglas (guest) says, "but I think every organization has its ups and downs." ronan [to mday]: Antipasto Tray of Artichoke Hearts,Roma Tomatoes, Mozzarella Cheese, Pepperonicini, Cherry Peppers,Pepperoni, Salami, Black Olives andSmokes Provolone Cheese; Veal Piccata with Lemon and Capers; Sauted Salmon with Tomatoes, White Wine, etcetera James nods to Douglas, agrees mday says, "thanks Tari!" Will (guest) says, "bye" Douglas (guest) steps off his soapbox James waves to Will MikeP says, "Bye Will." Will (guest) has disconnected. Tari says, "great, i'm going to starve to death at cw2k" The disconnected will (guest) decides e's outstayed eir welcome and goes home. James grins at Tari cin notes that Denton/Ft. Worth are not as nice to visit as the Black Hills are. At least, IMHO. Tari says, "mday's menu was awesome: i could eat it." Kafkaz says, "poor Tari . . ." ronan says, "there are lots of vegetables I omitted" cin . o O ( any last thoughts about Academic.Writing??? ) Kafkaz ate everything in sight in rapid city. SCog [to Tari]: i know places to eat in Ft Worth and Dallas, we'll do ok mday blushes; thanks! ronan says, "go here for complete menu: http://www.eaze.net/~jfbarber/cw 2k/news.html" SCog applauds Academic.Writing ronan [to SCog]: tamales, por favor SCog <- clapclapclap MikeP says, "I'm looking forward to the last push to make it into "print."" James nods to ronan-----John and Dene are doing great at adding news mday can't decide whether to drive or fly to Ft. W Douglas (guest) does think its important for online venues to support each other and hopes that Kairos and Academic.Writing can help each other out (collaborations, promotion, and soliciting) cin applauds for the guests -- nice show tonight! James joins SCog in applauding Academic.Writing------great stuff! [log closed]

Publication Information: Wambeam, Cindy, et al. (2000). Netoric's Spotlight Cafe: January 25, 2000. Academic.Writing. http://wac.colostate.edu/aw/connections/netoric1_25_2000.htmbr> Publication Date: March 26, 2000